Above the law?

Lostngone

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Aug 15, 2020
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Why are the homeless above the law?
The police here don’t seem to really care what they do, to what degree I am not sure. From illegal camping to public drunkenness/drug use it appears they don’t have to bother following the same laws I do. Two days ago I was at an intersection and I witnessed a male publicly urinating in plain view of a police officer and nothing was done. If it would been me doing that I would have been arrested, charged, fined and more likely then not been required to register as a sex offender for the rest of my life.

Why is the inability to pay fine a reason for being allowed to break laws? I really can’t afford to spend more than 30 days in jail so should I be able to rob a bank and get a pass?!?!
 

Scepticalscribe

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Aug 12, 2020
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Why is there no - or insufficient - (publicly funded) provision of decent, affordable housing?
 
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Renzatic

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Aug 14, 2020
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Man, I tell you, those homeless people got it MADE! They're the real elites of America. They can do what they want, when they want, how they want, and ain't no one gonna tell 'em otherwise.

Though in all seriousness, if they're urinating right in front of a cop, and nothing's being done, then I'm lead to assume that either...

A. They're crazy, and no one wants to deal with them. Or...
B. They're doing it to get free housing, and three squares a day, and the cops are cottoning on to it.
 

Scepticalscribe

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Don’t know, Is there a law that requires that?
I amended my post above; I meant to ask why is there an insufficient, or inadequate supply of publicly funded affordable, decent, housing?

I'm not American, so many of the belief systems of US society do not define my world or values.
 

Lostngone

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Aug 15, 2020
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I amended my post above; I meant to ask why is there an insufficient, or inadequate supply of publicly funded affordable, decent, housing?

I'm not American, so many of the belief systems of US society do not define my world or values.
It is a good question but I don’t see what it has to do with this thread? Many of the people I was referencing have free or almost free legal places to stay but choose for many different reasons not to.
 

niji

Active member
Aug 29, 2020
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hokkaido
Why are the homeless above the law?
Atlas Shrugs (along with Atlas' white friends who believe God rewards hard work with worldly riches) at these people, and, obviously even some people posting to this forum.

oh, and get prepared for a lot more homeless over the coming decades.

but remember, as trump is warning you, they will be coming into yr suburbs real soon. caravans are forming now.
 
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ericgtr12

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Aug 10, 2020
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Why are the homeless above the law?
The police here don’t seem to really care what they do, to what degree I am not sure. From illegal camping to public drunkenness/drug use it appears they don’t have to bother following the same laws I do. Two days ago I was at an intersection and I witnessed a male publicly urinating in plain view of a police officer and nothing was done. If it would been me doing that I would have been arrested, charged, fined and more likely then not been required to register as a sex offender for the rest of my life.

Why is the inability to pay fine a reason for being allowed to break laws? I really can’t afford to spend more than 30 days in jail so should I be able to rob a bank and get a pass?!?!
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. For example, if you drive through downtown San Francisco there are literally 15 or 16 city blocks going in several directions full of homeless people. Yes, many are drug addicts or alcoholics but they also have no place else they can go and there are no services to help them get off of it. In addition the median income necessary to buy a home there is over $300,000 and the inventory is extremely slim. Put simply, you have to wealthy to live anywhere there.

I can assure you, there aren't enough police in the entire state to enforce these petty crimes. It's a bigger issue that requires local Government to provide access services to help them get off of these substances and find them reasonable housing. Give them a path to a better life instead of locking them up and overwhelming the jails and prisons.

IMO this is like saying we need to just arrest all the Mexicans trying to cross the border instead of addressing the reason they're running in the first place. These are systemic issues that need to be addressed at the core.
 

SuperMatt

Site Champ
Aug 11, 2020
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Man, I tell you, those homeless people got it MADE! They're the real elites of America. They can do what they want, when they want, how they want, and ain't no one gonna tell 'em otherwise.

Though in all seriousness, if they're urinating right in front of a cop, and nothing's being done, then I'm lead to assume that either...

A. They're crazy, and no one wants to deal with them. Or...
B. They're doing it to get free housing, and three squares a day, and the cops are cottoning on to it.
This reminds me of Tom the Dancing Bug’s Lucky Ducky strips... below is an example. You can find them all if you care to search for them online...

1599876456859.gif
 

SuperMatt

Site Champ
Aug 11, 2020
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it is not a crime to be homeless.

it is a crime to sleep on public property such as streets, parks, etc.

there were at one time laws that threw you into jail just for being poor - even if you didn't have any debts.

Atlas Shrugs (along with Atlas' white friends who believe God rewards hard work) at these people, and, obviously even some people posting to this forum.

now, remember, homelessness is not a crime.
nor living in a car with two children while you work cleaning toilets.
but parking a car on a city street and staying in it overnight is against the law in many cities.

here is some advice fo you:

have a heart.
take him in yr car to a place and show him where he can bathe and there are toilet facilities.
show him where there is free internet so he can get call-backs from people who will hire him for day jobs.
and stop complaining that homeless people urinate in places where your eyesight is offended.

especially during a pandemic.
I do have to say that in many cities there are programs that provide food, clothing, showers, and a place to sleep for the homeless. Often the people sleeping on the street have issues beyond being poor: drug addiction, mental health problems, etc. Educating oneself about these programs in your city is the best thing to do IMHO. Some churches in my city create pamphlets outlining all the various services with addresses and phone numbers. One can also volunteer for a service that helps those in need.

It is a sad reality that sometimes those asking for money on the street aren’t using it for the necessities, but for things such as drugs and/or alcohol that got them into the situation in the first place. I believe the organized programs for helping the homeless are much more effective than trying to solve the problems of a random stranger on the street yourself.
 

Lostngone

Power User
Aug 15, 2020
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I am noting saying anyone should be singled out here. What I am saying is the law should be applied equally.

If the law/laws are not being enforced equally the simple solution should be to nullify them or at the very least decriminalize those laws. It seems pretty clear(to me) they are unable or unwilling to enforce these laws equally and the issue of that discrimination(in those cases) would go away if the law is removed, right?
 

Scepticalscribe

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Aug 12, 2020
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It is a good question but I don’t see what it has to do with this thread?


You cannot divorce the question of the visibility of the homeless from the public provision of affordable, decent, public housing. So, with respect, it has everything to do with this thread.

I am not familiar with matters relating to the provision of public housing in the US (or, rather, as I assume that this is not a federal matter, but, rather, is a matter where public policy decisions are taken more locally, how individual states, or, more likely still, how cities or counties run matters relating to the provision of public housing), but I find it far too easy to condemn the homeless without addressing deeper, structural issues of systemic inequality, such as poverty, ill-health, addiction, unemployment, lack of opportunity, and so on, the lack of affordability of decent housing in many US cities, and so on.

Many of the people I was referencing have free or almost free legal places to stay but choose for many different reasons not to.
I wish I could believe that.

My sense is that the "free" accommodation offered to the unemployed poor in the US takes the form of prisons.
 
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niji

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Aug 29, 2020
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... I find it far too easy to condemn the homeless without addressing deeper, structural issues of systemic inequality, such as poverty, ill-health, addiction, unemployment and so on, the lack of affordability of decent housing in many US cities, and so on.
...
My sense is that the "free" accommodation offered to the unemployed poor in the US takes the form of prisons.
both of these points are excellently written.

the concept of "economic privilege" and the blindness of most USAmericans to it, that you and i feel is at issue here, however, is an issue too far for most to understand.

even with the all the racial injustice, the concept of "white privilege" is not understood - even though it is easy to spot, point out, and describe.

a concept such as how generations of economic advantages give some economic classes of people inherent advantages is just too far for most to understand unfortunately.

to make matters worse, unfortunately in America there has been an evil religious linkage between "wealth"and being "favoured by God" - in tel-evangelism and trump's wealthiest of benefactors.
a linkage early proposed by Ayn Rand which is why my original post in this thread references Atlas Shrugged.

in the context of Atlas Shrugged, both @Scepticalscribe and @niji would be termed "looters".
 
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Scepticalscribe

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Aug 12, 2020
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And I would add to "unemployment" something that I almost consider worse, namely, underemployed, or paying people wages that they cannot afford to live on.

The "working poor" are also very likely to be in a position where - despite holding down, two, or sometimes three - atrociously paid jobs - that they cannot afford rent, utilities, food, heating.

Personally, I cannot see why those who run businesses (and in some cases, make considerable profits with extraordinary dividend yields to shareholders) are not obliged to pay a decent wage for the labour (and time) of their employees.

If you cannot afford to pay your employees a decent (living) wage, (even if, especially if, you use convenient fictions such as sub-contracting), - above all, if your company is profitable, you should not be in business.

To my mind, paying someone less than the living wage to work is both morally reprehensible, and economically egregious because it is both exploitative and utterly destructive of social fabric.
 
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Lostngone

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Aug 15, 2020
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Blah, blah, blah, working poor, social injustice, to expensive, blah, blah

I’m not asking why these people are homeless I’m asking why these people are repeatedly allowed to break the law. The people I see are the same the police see. I don’t have some detector that knows someone social status or living status. I am talking about people that are stealing, camping on a sidewalk of a busy street street, drinking/drunk in public, Doing drugs, people using the side of a busy street as a toilet.

In another part of this very forum people are praising Oregon’s forward thinking about voting for the decriminalizing drug use. I am just asking why not do the same for camping on sidewalks, petty theft, drinking/public intoxication and public urination.
 
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SuperMatt

Site Champ
Aug 11, 2020
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Okay well, I would hope the police write them tickets and/or arrest those people too.
That’s just the thing though. They seldom, if ever do. But although you didn’t see it that day, they regularly force the homeless to take their tents and evacuate at a moment’s notice.

In both cases, you have a lot of low-level misdemeanors being committed, and the police can’t reasonably arrest everybody. They seem to make more of an effort to police the homeless than they do the rowdy sports fans though.
 

Scepticalscribe

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Aug 12, 2020
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Blah, blah, blah, working poor, social injustice, to expensive, blah, blah
Come on, you can do better than that.

Otherwise, I might be tempted to reply: "Blah, blah, arrest, charge, convict and humiliate, but be sure to punish the poor for their poverty, and then blame them for being poor, blah blah."

Paying people enough to live on, while ensuring that public housing is affordable and of a decent quality and standard will (largely) resolve the "problem" of those who are, or who find themselves, homeless.
 

Lostngone

Power User
Aug 15, 2020
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Come on, you can do better than that.

Otherwise, I might be tempted to reply: "Blah, blah, arrest, charge, convict and humiliate, but be sure to punish the poor for their poverty, and then blame them for being poor, blah blah."

Paying people enough to live on, while ensuring that public housing is affordable and of a decent quality and standard will (largely) resolve the "problem" of those who are, or who find themselves, homeless.
Did I say I disagree and that we shouldn’t pay people a livable wage? I did not.

I do not want to debate this in this thread. My question is why isn’t the law enforced equally and if it isn’t why not get rid of the law?