Is the problem racism or police tactics or both?

Lostngone

Power User
Aug 15, 2020
107
85
Not all but when I see a lot of these shootings of minorities I stop and ask myself would I feel differently or think that the shooting somehow wasn’t justified if the person was white and in a lot of cases I don’t.

I understand there is a history of unjustified violence against minorities here BUT if you play stupid games and ignore police commands and do something threatening or possibly dangerous why should feel sorry for that person black or white if they get shot?
 

Scepticalscribe

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 12, 2020
538
773
But the thing is, in the US, I don't think that someone would get shot in the back six or seven times if they were white.

And they most certainly wouldn't be shot in the back six or seven times if they were white and middle class.

Rather, I suspect that they would be appropriately restrained, and not by kneeling on their neck for almost nine minutes until they suffocated, either.

My sense is that when such a confrontation occurs in the US, if the alleged perpetrator is black, the police, or law enforcement bodies, move immediately (and perhaps instinctively) to the stance of maximum permitted response, rather than using the minimum force necessary to achieve their aims.
 
Last edited:

SuperMatt

Site Champ
Aug 11, 2020
345
452
Not all but when I see a lot of these shootings of minorities I stop and ask myself would I feel differently or think that the shooting somehow wasn’t justified if the person was white and in a lot of cases I don’t.

I understand there is a history of unjustified violence against minorities here BUT if you play stupid games and ignore police commands and do something threatening or possibly dangerous why should feel sorry for that person black or white if they get shot?
Black people are far more likely to be killed by cops. It’s racism. You don’t think white people high on drugs don’t do dumb stuff when the cops are around? Watch the show COPS and see. Just seems like the police usually find a way to NOT kill the white people.

 
  • Like
Reactions: ericgtr12

ericgtr12

Elite Member
Staff member
Aug 10, 2020
1,015
1,533
Not all but when I see a lot of these shootings of minorities I stop and ask myself would I feel differently or think that the shooting somehow wasn’t justified if the person was white and in a lot of cases I don’t.

I understand there is a history of unjustified violence against minorities here BUT if you play stupid games and ignore police commands and do something threatening or possibly dangerous why should feel sorry for that person black or white if they get shot?
I would ask what constitutes a death sentence. If you are unarmed and resist, if you run, if you keep walking as they harass you for the crime of walking down the street, does that justify their murder?

The first disadvantage minorities have is the color of their skin, it's what police see as probable cause. They approach you or pull you over as if you're guilty of something, now you have to give the officer a "please, thank you, sir" treatment or face their stern hand. This is not a system of protect and serve, it's authoritarian and oppressive.

When you have half a dozen cops at a scene and one unarmed black person, resisting or not, it should NOT be a crime worthy of death under any circumstance. If they are running away, you should not have a right to shoot them 7 times in the back. If you're walking down the street in a hoodie and suspicious cops aggressively question you, you have a right to push back and defend yourself.

As far what makes a person racist, not all are outwardly obvious but it exists on a much deeper level. If your first instinct when you see an unarmed black person killed by a cop is to question the victim and demand proof that he didn't deserve it, then IMO it's a sign of systemic racism. They don't see it, but it's there. It's Fox News, it's Republicans and it's the Blue Lives Matter ilk. Their fight isn't for the law, it's for racism.
 

PearsonX

Site Champ
Aug 25, 2020
312
386
Black people are far more likely to be killed by cops. It’s racism. You don’t think white people high on drugs don’t do dumb stuff when the cops are around? Watch the show COPS and see. Just seems like the police usually find a way to NOT kill the white people.

Studies like this are incredibly hard to conduct because:
1. Race of the victim (and perpetrator) is incompletely tracked (for better of worse).
2. Police reported data may be unreliable (like they will report that there was a gun or the victim attacking, and these statements also need to be evaluated and integrated into the data...hard)
3. As described in your link, the neighborhood effect can significantly skew things
4. What some right wing people love to state, that you need to adjust the data with the proportion of violent crime perpetrated by the population studied (this stat is very skewed, still you can rest your case if the disparities hold even after correction to this variable)

I also absolutely hate the concept of race reinvigorated by these movements. African-Americans, largely to our troubling history, have a lot of European ancestry and are incredibly diverse genetically. Many black people have closer genetic linkage to white people than to one another. This is why race is largely a societal construct.

Growing up black in Europe, most of the racism I experienced was explicit. It's disgusting, you deal with it, and learn how to let it go. In America, I may have had experienced explicit racism 1x or 2x total. On the other hand implicit bias (racism) is very common, and it can really get under your skin if you don't have the tools to cope with it. Now when the cops do it with you, those coping mechanisms stop working because of the uneven field. Cops know this and some enjoy their mind games.
 

PearsonX

Site Champ
Aug 25, 2020
312
386
So should Brionna Taylor have woken up in order to obey the police?
She was awake, standing in the hallway when she was shot. What's fucked up is that we have to take people's words for what happened when the detectives should have worn body cams.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jkcerda and Alli

PearsonX

Site Champ
Aug 25, 2020
312
386
I understand there is a history of unjustified violence against minorities here BUT if you play stupid games and ignore police commands and do something threatening or possibly dangerous why should feel sorry for that person black or white if they get shot?
But this is absolutely not good enough. Why is it OK for a cop to have the ultimate violence (gun) as his sole tool in his repertoire to solve difficult situations? We also need context as to what happened that led to the gun being drawn in the first place. My assessment is that the cop pulled the gun, expected immediate compliance, and he was absolutely shocked when things didn't happen that way. So instead of preventing Blake to get in his car, he shoots him in the back 7 times.
 

Lostngone

Power User
Aug 15, 2020
107
85
But this is absolutely not good enough. Why is it OK for a cop to have the ultimate violence (gun) as his sole tool in his repertoire to solve difficult situations? We also need context as to what happened that led to the gun being drawn in the first place. My assessment is that the cop pulled the gun, expected immediate compliance, and he was absolutely shocked when things didn't happen that way. So instead of preventing Blake to get in his car, he shoots him in the back 7 times.
If I am running from the police and Breaking other laws or putting other people in danger and I am stopped and the police tell me to put my hands up/where they can be seen but instead quickly reach into my pocket I would expect to get shot. Maybe we need a law that says the police need to be shot at or violence used against them first before they are allowed to take any action?
 

PearsonX

Site Champ
Aug 25, 2020
312
386
If I am running from the police and Breaking other laws or putting other people in danger
But that's the thing. People are eager to make these assumptions if this happens to a black person.
What pisses me off is we are missing so much of the context. You're making assumptions based on preconceived notions.
What isn't preconceived, that this guy was not running. He was casually walking away.

[if] I am stopped and the police tell me to put my hands up/where they can be seen but instead quickly reach into my pocket I would expect to get shot.
This is a comment made lightly only by people who had never been in a situation like this.
If you look up Laurence Crosby's story you'll know that this principle applies differently to black people. (His story resonates with me, because I'm a tall black guy too).
To restate: our gentleman here was not doing anything quickly.

Maybe we need a law that says the police need to be shot at or violence used against them first before they are allowed to take any action?
Believe it or not, proportional use of force is a thing and can be expected from officers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SuperMatt and Alli

ericgtr12

Elite Member
Staff member
Aug 10, 2020
1,015
1,533
If I am running from the police and Breaking other laws or putting other people in danger and I am stopped and the police tell me to put my hands up/where they can be seen but instead quickly reach into my pocket I would expect to get shot. Maybe we need a law that says the police need to be shot at or violence used against them first before they are allowed to take any action?
So running away justifies killing them? Just want to be sure I've read your position correctly here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SuperMatt

Lostngone

Power User
Aug 15, 2020
107
85
So running away justifies killing them? Just want to be sure I've read your position correctly here.
Them? If I decide to run from the police and I am endangering other people by doing so weather it is speeding at a high rate of speed or running around on foot with a firearm or other dangerous weapon and after I am stopped I ignore lawful police commands or do something threatening like reaching into my pockets or a car the answer to your question is yes I would expect deadly force to be used.

The reason for that is is I have already proven that I am a danger to other people and putting other people at risk so I think deadly force is appropriate in those cases.
 

Renzatic

Site Champ
Aug 14, 2020
618
1,070
Them? If I decide to run from the police and I am endangering other people by doing so weather it is speeding at a high rate of speed or running around on foot with a firearm or other dangerous weapon and after I am stopped I ignore lawful police commands or do something threatening like reaching into my pockets or a car the answer to your question is yes I would expect deadly force to be used.

The reason for that is is I have already proven that I am a danger to other people and putting other people at risk so I think deadly force is appropriate in those cases.
And in those situations, I'd agree with you. There are instances where it's justifiable for the police to shoot a suspect in the back.

Thing is, we can't allow these legitimate reasons to become blanket post hoc excuses used to explain away gross negligence. "I feared for my life" shouldn't become a magic statement allowing the police to do anything they want, regardless of actual threat.
 

PearsonX

Site Champ
Aug 25, 2020
312
386
Them? If I decide to run from the police and I am endangering other people by doing so weather it is speeding at a high rate of speed or running around on foot with a firearm or other dangerous weapon and after I am stopped I ignore lawful police commands or do something threatening like reaching into my pockets or a car the answer to your question is yes I would expect deadly force to be used.

The reason for that is is I have already proven that I am a danger to other people and putting other people at risk so I think deadly force is appropriate in those cases.
Can you answer one question:
Should the USA be held to the same standards of other Western democracies? Is it OK to hold the USA to literally 3rd world standards?
 

Lostngone

Power User
Aug 15, 2020
107
85
I am looking for answers here maybe we need to change the law and say deadly force is never allowed by police. Or allow minorities to claim during a stop that they are in fear of their life and by law require the police to stop pursuit or leave.
 

PearsonX

Site Champ
Aug 25, 2020
312
386
I am looking for answers here maybe we need to change the law and say deadly force is never allowed by police. Or allow minorities to claim during a stop that they are in fear of their life and by law require the police to stop pursuit or leave.
This is stupid and you know it.
 

Lostngone

Power User
Aug 15, 2020
107
85
Can you answer one question:
Should the USA be held to the same standards of other Western democracies? Is it OK to hold the USA to literally 3rd world standards?
Whatever is fair and gets the job done I’m all for, third world or first world.