Is The USA a Country Who Had It All, Deserve to Continue To Succeed?

Huntn

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This is hard for me. Born in 1953, 6 years after WWII, I grew up in a land of plenty buoyed by emerging from WWII with the New Deal in place, an infrastructure mostly unscathed, with business booming, and a thriving Middle Class.

Oh sure it was not all peaches and cream. The War on Civil Rights where people who insisted on equal rights were (and still are today murdered), the Communist scare where a Senate Committee led by a Republucan, insisted on rooting out Communists and lumping in anyone who was considered subversive to make their lives miserable.

Yes the Republicans used to hate Communists until their party was hijacked by a crooked dip shit in love with Putin and other strong men and his army of moronic bubbas, pseudo- patriotic, pseudo- Christian Imbeciles, who fell for the Big Con. He played them like a fiddle, but I digress.

In the Progressive 1960’s, the Democrats tried to fix the race problem. Some progress was made, a ton of money was thrown at our poor, and despite the Racist pronouncements of Gov George Wallace, a Southern firebrand, Southern Schools were forcibly integrated, and separate but equal, a bullshit standard was abandoned. President Lyndon Johnson lamented that Civil Rights as led by Democrats would turn the South Republican, and it did...and poverty was not eradicated.

So when anyone tells you it was the Democrats were racists, just remember it was the Southern Democrats who hated Lincoln (a Republican) who defeated them in the Civil War, yet they hated the idea of equal rights as orchestrated by Democrats for their former slaves even more, so most of them flipped to the GOP. Ironic huh?

Now it can be argued what the Nation had in the 1950-60s economy wise could not be sustained. But back then CEOs made xx times what an average worker, not xxxx. Then we hit the 80s were greed became good and then there was Ronald Reagan, the god of the Republican Party who today would be tossed out for being too Liberal, yes, I said liberal. He promoted the idea of cutting spending and taxes, but in the end Congress only cut taxes, and the GOP, the party of Fiscal Hawks started the US down the road of it’s first significant post WWII debt, and our debt has been growing ever since. Now it’s an insurmountable mountain of debt. Frankly I think we are screwed.

The 80s was also the time when the GOP transformed itself into a pack of sleazy self serving liars. Since that time, instead of honest policy debates, we now get character assassination of opponents to the GOP. I remember when Bill Clinton was being impeached for lying about his affair with a Monica Lewiski, Congressman Slimy Newt Gingrich who was on the side prosecuting Clinton, was banging his secretary in backseat of his car, while his wife lay dieing in the hospital, yet the GOP felt the moral standard that Clinton displayed with an assistant, justified him being removed from office. As you know, he was impeached, but not convicted.

Looking back on this event in light of Donald Trump has to be guffaw worthy, the utter self serving hypocracy of our self described most patriotic political party, who has now decided that US Treasury dollars grow on trees, that their arch enemy Russia is not so bad, and who cares if we have an immoral, incompetent, insecure, mentally ill peace of shit,, sociopath and crook sitting in the White House? Our Dummies like him and they elected me, so case closed.

So where does that leave us today? Maybe I’m just displaying the pessimism that comes with old age, but everything seem to be deteriorating as Greedy Bastards grab all they can for themselves, millions of jobs have been exported by the same greedy bastards, Automation is wholesale taking more jobs, Capitalism as we know it is strained and can’t support the populace at large. I believe there is more socialism in our future, and if it is sustainable and serves most of us, so be it.

So, what do you think?
  • Will we find our way?
  • Will we prevail?
  • Willl our National Debt break us?
  • Or are we screwed and have a revolution in out future?

Note: there maybe typos, I’ll fix them as I notice or they are pointed out. :)
 
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Huntn

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WE ARE Screwed. not sure I see a revolution in our future and BOTH sides are nothing but shit.
Your equivalence argument does nothing to help us forward, because what you are saying is that all Humans are worthless. I agree, we will get exactly what we deserve based on our choices and galactic determinism. Some would call it Darwinian Justice or cause and effect. It requires Intelligence and smart, pragmatic choices for us to have a chance. But maybe that is the way of the universe, civilizations collapse based on their short comings and bad choices.
 
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jkcerda

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pray/say/tell HOW does blaming ONE side help us move forward? we keep electing SHIT an reaping the rewards for it. continually being "pragmatic" and electing Mao to stop hitler is how we got here and why we will STAY in this mess.
 

Huntn

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pray/say/tell HOW does blaming ONE side help us move forward? we keep electing SHIT an reaping the rewards for it. continually being "pragmatic" and electing Mao to stop hitler is how we got here and why we will STAY in this mess.
Dear lad, I and anyone who is knowlegible about the political history of the US from 1950s on can highlight the fundamental difference between liberal and conservative ideology and their motivations.

Number one, you have to take a harder look at the goals of conservatism vs liberalism.

This is not an argument that the Republicans are to blame for everything wrong with the politics of this country and the state of Congress today, but you can easily lay 80% on Conservatives, especially when in the 1970s their party, the GOP decided that lying and trying to fool their suckers was the best idea to prevail.

Or maybe they just appeal to all the qualities we look down on today, such as greed, homophobia, sexism, racial prejudice, religious zealotry etc, because they know they can connect with enough of a certain type to get them elected. Who cares about being an advanced civilization if we can win using might makes right and keeping others under our thumb?

And sure, be mad at liberals for spending lots of money trying to level playing fields, create equal opportunity, and eradicate poverty, but they as a rule are honest about their agenda. Republicans spend virtually all their time reliably lying, trying to appeal to their constituents’ base nature.
 
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jkcerda

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Dear lad, I and anyone who is knowlegible about the political history of the US from 1950s on can highlight the fundamental difference between liberal and conservative ideology and their motivations.

Number one, you have to take a harder look at the goals of conservatism vs liberalis.

This is not an argument that the Republicans are to blame for everything wrong with the politics of this country and the state of Congress today, but you can easily lay 80% on Conservatives, especially when in the 1970s their party, the GOP decided that lying and trying to fool their suckers was the best idea to prevail.

Or maybe they just appeal to all the qualities we look down on today, such as greed, homophobia, sexism, racial prejudice, religious zealotry etc, because they know they can connect with enough of a certain type to get them elected. Who cares about being an advanced civilization if we can win using might makes right and keeping others under our thumb?

And sure, be mad at liberals for spending lots of money trying to level playing fields, create equal opportunity, and eradicate poverty, but they as a rule are honest about their agenda. Republicans spend virtually all their time reliably lying, trying to appeal to their constituents’ base nature.
ideology vs ACTIONS..
YOUR lot got away with
bombing more countries than Bush
deporting more than Bush OR trump
kids cages? built under Obama.
signed indefinite detention w/o trial into law
Biden author or 1994 crime bill
Harris? jailed plenty as prosecutor


your party's "goal's/ideals" are pretty, but that is all they are because their ACTIONS speak louder than the "goals/ideals" you talk about. why? well you guys pretend to be for BLM and #metoo, yet your candidates are those who put plenty of minorities in jail AND Biden is arguably a WORSE predator than trump, not a damn kid he hasn't sniffed , you keep settling for hitler and then wonder how we got here. perhaps the day YOU hold your party accountable for their actions is the day things might start to turn around, MY party is NEVER going to be in power but it's funny seeing you pretend that your party is not to blame for any of the mess we are in. you had Bill Clinton speak at the DNC, seems you guys only believe the women that suit you and BLM only until you figure out who you are going to vote for at election time.
 
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lizkat

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WE ARE Screwed. not sure I see a revolution in our future and BOTH sides are nothing but shit.
It's not all about where we drop bombs. Some of the bombs are not bombs but sins of commission or omission in domestic affairs.

If you can't see the difference in actual policy between say Obama and Trump on matters as basic as clean air and water, I have mistaken your flair for the occasional on-the-money meme for general acuity in sorting out what's what.

Anyway we now have in Trump's EPA, DOI, DOE clear indications of where they're coming from: total deregulation. Kiss that air and water improvement goodbye. couldn't come at a worse time since Trump's also down with ignoring critical path indicators regarding point of no return and climate change.

In short, Trump's environmental policies are not like Obama's and are even more deadly for not just pruning what some regarded as overkill (e.g. rules affecting seasonal waterways that are more like irrigation ditches than anything else), but for rolling back basic clear air and water rules that Americans have favored by vast majorities since the 1970s.

We really don't want any more Love Canal incidents of undeclared and unremediated toxic chemical dumps, nor ash dumps in the creeks, nor limits taken off methylmercury emissions from coal fired power plants... nor fine print in energy bills meant to make Superfund cleanup contributions optional despite ongoing oil spills, etc.

The public is meanwhile distracted by trying to figure out what the hell happened to health care and what's with the jobs that vanished as quickly as they showed up, and what's going to happen with ongoing covid-19 when the deferred rent comes due and can't be paid and too bad we can't rewind a clock and shut this country down firmly for 12 weeks last January, eh?

And infrastructure.... college debt hamstringing an entire generation... trade relationships reduced to photo ops and WH press announcements with the details left hanging or unratified. And farmers with silos full of rotting crops... fruit farmers unable to find pickers enough for their harvest thanks to inadequate fixes to guest worker programs never mind actual immigration reform....

Sure there are differences between the major parties, despite concerns over the past 40 years that K street drives the bus too often no matter which party wins the elections.

Trump has put the lie to that old worry in just four years. He made just about everything worse except for the silver lining in some windfall-enriched pockets and some recipients of unfunded tax cuts that should never have been made.

And those exceptions? Are not reason to vote for him again, since they were one-offs. There's no there there any more. The cupboards are bare. I'm surprised the Dems even want the WH job, It will be a heavy, heavy lift.

Thread topic material: Of course the USA deserves to succeed. Define success, though! In the USA the opportunity to succeed is supposed to belong to us all. Not gonna make it if there are people kneeling on some of our necks. Starting to wonder who's left out of that practice when we extend it past law enforcement and racial justice issues to matters like for which class of people the Trump administration's policies actually mean to improve life.

Even the children of the 1% are not going to thank these morons in Trump's crew for what they've signed off on as okay for the environment. Fact !!

We only have one planet. Just like money, air and water are mostly fungible: that breeze from the west that comes through a window in Philadelphia this afternoon, meant to bring a rainshower tomorrow, passed through some windows in Pittsburgh earlier on and looks indistinguishable, doesn't it? Yeah. but lucky you if you're a guy who's living an hour or so north of Philly. Same breeze, different additives picked up on the way east. And lucky me for living up in the headwaters of a couple of river systems now at renewed risk of contamination by ash dumps as the waters winds their way down through so many communities to the Atlantic Ocean.

I could go on but I'm afraid Gutwrench will show up over here and fall asleep...
 
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Chew Toy McCoy

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I’m too spent to get into this at the moment, but the Democrat party started sliding downhill when Clinton decided nothing bad could come from having 2 parties representing big money.
 
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Renzatic

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I posted the links that mattered, you can always address what is there.
Your problem has always been that you cling to the same arguments time and time again, and even when shown how wrong they are, you will continue to repeat them as if they're gospel truth.

Such as Obama bombing more countries than Bush? Did he attack these countries governments directly? No. A goodly chunk of them were ISIS targets, sometimes done at the behest of the country he was bombing.

Did Libya fall because of Obama? No, it was already falling, embroiled in a civil war that was nearing its end by the time the US became involved.

Was Obama to blame for the mass refugee exodus from Syria? No. People had been fleeing the country for three years by the time Obama involved the US there, and his contribution was arming rebel factions already on the attack. He contributed to the chaos towards the end, but wasn't directly responsible for it.

Though in a twist, Trump came to directly involve us in Syrian affairs, then abandoned our allies in the region to their deaths due to a promise to withdraw US forces from the region which he never ended up fulfilling. I've seen you argue in Trump's favor of this many a time.

Kids in cages? Obama did build the facilities, this is true, but his policies made a firm commitment to keeping families intact. Blaming Obama for what later Trump did with those facilities, entirely in opposition of what Obama initially intended. is like blaming gun manufacturers for massing shootings. It's a deflection.

Indefinite Detention? Yeah, Obama should've nixed it, even if it cost him some political favor over blocking the military spending bill it was riding. Though your solution to this problem is to punish the Democrats by supporting the very people who wrote the law in the first place, which makes no goddamn sense.

...though I do think it's funny how those who try to illustrate the "hypocrisies" of "the left" by illustrating all these things Obama supposedly did that's even worse than Trump are also the same people who claim they voted for Trump because of Obama's alleged open border policies rewarded illegal immigration.

And Biden's 1994 bill? Yeah, he fucked up. Is Trump any better? I'd say not, since we have evidence that Biden can at least learn from his past mistakes.

Anyway, this is about the 10th time we've had this conversation now. I expect the 11th will come again soon enough.
 

SuperMatt

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ideology vs ACTIONS..
YOUR lot got away with
bombing more countries than Bush
deporting more than Bush OR trump
kids cages? built under Obama.
signed indefinite detention w/o trial into law
Biden author or 1994 crime bill
Harris? jailed plenty as prosecutor


your party's "goal's/ideals" are pretty, but that is all they are because their ACTIONS speak louder than the "goals/ideals" you talk about. why? well you guys pretend to be for BLM and #metoo, yet your candidates are those who put plenty of minorities in jail AND Biden is arguably a WORSE predator than trump, not a damn kid he hasn't sniffed , you keep settling for hitler and then wonder how we got here. perhaps the day YOU hold your party accountable for their actions is the day things might start to turn around, MY party is NEVER going to be in power but it's funny seeing you pretend that your party is not to blame for any of the mess we are in. you had Bill Clinton speak at the DNC, seems you guys only believe the women that suit you and BLM only until you figure out who you are going to vote for at election time.
Cherry-picked exaggerated baloney in those links. Typical both-sides-ism. Trump intentionally separated babies from their parents to discourage immigration. Pure cruelty. “oh but Obama put people in similar cages too” - the anger at Trump was separating kids from their parents. I already know Trump voters LIKED him separating kids from parents, as long as they’re not white.

You pretend to care about a small handful of negative actions taken by Obama and Biden, and clearly don’t give a shit about the constant anti-Muslim, racist, xenophobic diarrhea shooting out of Trump’s mouth... or his policies severely limiting LEGAL immigration, sending federal police to teargas protesters in liberal cities, etc. Try selling your mouldering mound of festering feces elsewhere.

Trump’s cruelty is the point. You can’t pretend to care about a misstep by Biden or Obama when you enthusiastically support the segregationist in the White House. Zzzzz.....
 
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Renzatic

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I’m too spent to get into this at the moment, but the Democrat party started sliding downhill when Clinton decided nothing bad could come from having 2 parties representing big money.
Being roughly kindasorta something of a 3rd Wayer myself, I can see the wisdom in trying to thread the fine line between the public and the private sectors, considering big business and the people as part of the same greater whole. The problem is, 3rd Wayers ended up becoming Republican Lites, losing themselves to the same problem of listening to their donors rather than their voters.
 

jkcerda

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Cherry-picked exaggerated baloney in those links. Typical both-sides-ism. Trump intentionally separated babies from their parents to discourage immigration. Pure cruelty. “oh but Obama put people in similar cages too” - the anger at Trump was separating kids from their parents. I already know Trump voters LIKED him separating kids from parents, as long as they’re not white.

You pretend to care about a small handful of negative actions taken by Obama and Biden, and clearly don’t give a shit about the constant anti-Muslim, racist, xenophobic diarrhea shooting out of Trump’s mouth... or his policies severely limiting LEGAL immigration, sending federal police to teargas protesters in liberal cities, etc. Try selling your mouldering mound of festering feces elsewhere.

Trump’s cruelty is the point. You can’t pretend to care about a misstep by Biden or Obama when you enthusiastically support the segregationist in the White House. Zzzzz.....
I am not voting trump. you guys are seemingly voting for a group that seems to be the opposite of what you spout........
 

Renzatic

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I am not voting trump. you guys are seemingly voting for a group that seems to be the opposite of what you spout........
No, we all realize that there are no perfect politicians in Washington, and that they've all got at least a little dirt on them.

The problem is you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good enough on one hand, advocating for a group of well intentioned ideological zealots on the other, which, when taken together, allows the worst case scenario to thrive.
 
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lizkat

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I posted the links that mattered, you can always address what is there.
That's what mattered most to YOU... to me there are clearly other things as mentioned in my post and so big differences there between the two parties.

And for all its flaws I certainly don't hate the USA, I do want it to succeed as a nation (so there are issues in the links you supplied that obviously do concern me).

But a country cannot succeed if it will not take care of its natural resources, environment, public health and the economic well being of its citizens.

When imbalances accrue over time so that power and wealth belong primarily to a small upper class, then in the end it's about no wall high enough and so about escalating violence between the haves and have-nots. It's not possible for that to end very well, much less as anything one could mistake for a country's "success". The remnants of an upper class meanwhile seek haven elsewhere and a ruler gone rogue may flee for exile with his life and some loot if he's lucky.

We don't have to go down that path but we seem to have taken a turn toward it in the policies Trump and pals have attempted to implement in the past four years. Even rank and file of his own party hardly recognize the GOP they once followed as conservatives, so it could be time for the Republicans to rethink their course while they are out of power (which state they seem determined to achieve as Trump continues to alienate more of his own 2016 voter base).
 
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Huntn

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Aug 11, 2020
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ideology vs ACTIONS..
YOUR lot got away with
bombing more countries than Bush
deporting more than Bush OR trump
kids cages? built under Obama.
signed indefinite detention w/o trial into law
Biden author or 1994 crime bill
Harris? jailed plenty as prosecutor


your party's "goal's/ideals" are pretty, but that is all they are because their ACTIONS speak louder than the "goals/ideals" you talk about. why? well you guys pretend to be for BLM and #metoo, yet your candidates are those who put plenty of minorities in jail AND Biden is arguably a WORSE predator than trump, not a damn kid he hasn't sniffed , you keep settling for hitler and then wonder how we got here. perhaps the day YOU hold your party accountable for their actions is the day things might start to turn around, MY party is NEVER going to be in power but it's funny seeing you pretend that your party is not to blame for any of the mess we are in. you had Bill Clinton speak at the DNC, seems you guys only believe the women that suit you and BLM only until you figure out who you are going to vote for at election time.
Describe the mess and assign blame specifically. My guess is my version will be much different than yours. And I never said Dems were perfect.

Just stop pretending you are mister neutral, never hear a peep from you about the non stop lying coming from the Right. Yeah, yeah, I know they aren't your party, but you spend 90% of your effort in any forum is attacking Democrats while giving the biggest single POS of our life times a pass 99% of the time, unless we joke a criticism out of you. Yeah fair and neutral. :whistle:
  • Biden is a Predator?? BS, you just gave yourself away as far as your news sources.
  • Your beef with Harris is she was a Prosecuter?
  • And you are calling Lewinski a victim in a consensual affair?
 
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lizkat

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I am not voting trump. you guys are seemingly voting for a group that seems to be the opposite of what you spout........
Nah, that's definitely an incorrect overgeneralization. Otherwise Trump & Co wouldn't have cluttered the Federal Register the last four years with so many godforsaken rollbacks of rules and regulations meant to protect workers, consumers, students, our natural resources and the environment. Think about it. The Dems put their platform into law while they were in power. The Rs are dismantling it for the convenience of a class that had already amassed a concentration of wealth that makes a mockery of the idea of equality under our rule of law.
 
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Lostngone

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We have been here before as long as we try and stay true to our ideals I think we will come out of it. Maybe not in my lifetime, but...
I think we need some national pride all this self-hate, division and FUD is really hurting us. I am not saying we have been or are perfect BUT we seem to be having an issue with only focusing on the negative. I think some of it is justified but we have gone to too far of an extreme.
 
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Huntn

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Aug 11, 2020
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I am not voting trump. you guys are seemingly voting for a group that seems to be the opposite of what you spout........
We are voting for a party who can win and is not Trump nor corrupt like Trump and the GOP. It is relative, and it makes a difference. Once Mr Dispicable is gone, then we can start fine tuning what we want. Your person will not win this election, so after Trump is gone let’s talk about it. In the mean time stop shooting down the only hope of getting that jack ass out of the White House.
 
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