More Trump Hitler comparisons

lizkat

Site Champ
Aug 15, 2020
485
996
Catskill Mountains
Sadly, I think the most likely result will be that either no charges will be brought, or he will fight and stall everything in court and death takes him before justice does.

He may flee to another country. Who’d offer him safe harbor though?
For a price, assuming Trump could come up with it? Heh. I dunno. He keeps shooting himself in the foot with his big mouth throwing epithets around when he disagrees with something that another sovereign nation does or signs up to do.

Presumably he'd go for some country with which we have no extradition treaty and preferably one where he has built a resort. Not sure what the overlap is there....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Huntn

Huntn

Power User
Aug 11, 2020
136
157
I don’t think we’ll ever agree, but coffee/beer is on me.
I say this as friendly as I can, unless something has changed, your preference for Donald Trump basically over any Democrat undermines all of your reasonable arguments and moderate words.

There is a stark poisonous reality to Trump, that the arguments he is a better choice are disingenuous and destructive to the country, even if you think we’ll survive him and Republicans will still reign supreme.

I hope with all my heart they pay dearly for their eyes wide open malfeasance, disrespect for the law, the undermining of our values, and harm done at the Federal level, when they think there is political advantage in it for them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Edd70 and Alli

Scepticalscribe

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 12, 2020
587
868
No surprise I disagree with you. Thump is a sociopath, a crook, a predigious liar and has been about skirting the law his entire life. It’s extremely dangerous to give this kind of person a sociopath the power of POTUS. He’s hard core into authoritarian rule if he is allowed to, and I feel he’d have no qualms about doing whatever he could to hold onto power. I’m sorry, I don’t see the relationship to Churchill, right now he’s Hitler light. Give him a chance and we’ll see what new low he can sink to.
@Huntn, I am pretty much in broad agreement with your characterisation of the appalling Mr Trump.

But - and this is where I beg to differ - that still does not make him Adolf Hitler.
 

Alli

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 11, 2020
948
1,337
I think we tend to use Hitler because everyone knows the name. Comparing Trump to Atilla the Hun would just sound silly.

I’ll agree that Hitler was much more charismatic and probably much smarter. Certainly a better speaker! But fascism is fascism, and dictators are dictators.
 

Huntn

Power User
Aug 11, 2020
136
157
@Huntn, I am pretty much in broad agreement with your characterisation of the appalling Mr Trump.

But - and this is where I beg to differ - that still does not make him Adolf Hitler.
No one is calling him Hitler, at best Hitler Light and it’s because the parallels are there and it has to do with his facist tendencies undermining, poisoning everything he touches for his personal benifit. If given enough support, I can easily imagining him morphing into his worst.
 

Citizenzen

Power User
Aug 31, 2020
65
116
... However, and this is what I think may be @yaxomoxay's point - he is not Adolf Hitler, and - wearing my historian's hat here - I think that comparisons to Hitler are made so easily and so often (and not just with Mr Trump) that the comparison has become too facile and has lost any analytical or political or historical value it may once have had. ...
Tump is not Hitler? Time has not reversed? A human hasn’t magically transmogrified into another human form? Bold claims, Scepticalscribe. This is the kind of analysis I’ve definitely missed in PRSI.

Of course trump is not Hitler. Of course Hitler was far more deadly and destructive than trump has ever been.

Nobody is comparing body counts. We are talking about the psychology that is shared by these two figures and the people who follow them. We are talking about the destruction of democracy that occurs when despots of similar disposition are given the reins of power. We are talking about how a few well placed accomplices can so easily turn a functioning government into a criminal enterprise. And we are talking about a leader who will fan the flames of social division in order to further his goals.

If those parallels don’t seem apt and applicable to you or @yaxomoxay then I fear for our ability to observe the past and learn from it. If you are merely tired of the comparison, then just be thankful that you aren’t living it. There is nothing quite like watching you nation crumble in front of your eyes, and there is little so disheartening as seeing 40% of the population support it.

And lastly a question for@yaxomoxay—as I have not been paricipating in these discussions for years—will you vote for trump in November?
 

PearsonX

Site Champ
Aug 25, 2020
352
448
Other than the recent denouncing of violence from his opponent’s side while giving the violence of his supporters a free pass. Watched a documentary on Hitler’s career and he was notoriously lazy at doing any actual work and frequently needed rallies and public appearances to refuel his energy and ego. Also members of his inner circle were often subjected to long rambling ideological monologues for hours on end during what would be considered casual hangout time.

But hey, he’s not gassing Jews. So I guess you can’t make any comparisons whatsoever because you know on day one of his dictatorship he was gassing Jews and launching WWII. No years’ long build-up or red flags before getting there. Nope. Just dropped out of the sky without warning.
so was Churchill. Trump also begins the day in an unstructured manner, like Churchill, and he insults people, like Churchill (Hitler was nice to his people).
Is trump the new Churchill? Sorry but this thread is dumb. You can find parallels with anyone if you look closely. I guess that now I can finally say that all dog owners that are vegetarian are literally Hitler.

Both of you guys make a point. The difference? The environment that enables and amplifies psychopathology into a genocide machine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alli

PearsonX

Site Champ
Aug 25, 2020
352
448
There is nothing quite like watching you nation crumble in front of your eyes, and there is little so disheartening as seeing 40% of the population support it.
It's seed and soil. It always takes much more than a man.
I agree that the 40% approval is pretty good soil for a bad seed.
This reminds me, I wonder why we never compare Trump to Mussolini, the original fascist.
 

lizkat

Site Champ
Aug 15, 2020
485
996
Catskill Mountains
It's seed and soil. It always takes much more than a man.
I agree that the 40% approval is pretty good soil for a bad seed.
This reminds me, I wonder why we never compare Trump to Mussolini, the original fascist.
There are plenty more to look at too. So far the absolute worst dictator in the modern history of the Americas has to have been Trujillo in the Dominican Republic. If that doesn't ring a bell for a lot of people, read up sometime on the 1937 Parsley massacre. That alone certainly explains why there's far more than "friendly rivalry" today lingering on the island of Hispaniola between Haitians and citizens of the DR, but it's not like Trujillo treated his own citizens with any respect for their humanity either.

I'm not suggesting Trump's a Trujillo. He plays at paving the way for one though: his fondness for EOs versus legislation, for appointing "acting deputies" instead of new agency chiefs the Senate would have to confirm, his weakening of our federal agencies by inserting former lobbyists as cabinet heads, end runs around the House appropriations, hijacking his own party into almost total sycophancy, disdain for and effort to discredit a free press, his endless public repetition of blatant lies... all those are an impressive start to what most eventual dictators (the ones who are actually elected) end up doing, which is effecting a sudden seizure of absolute power in a moment of national crisis.

As @yaxomaxy pointed out, Trump actually bollixed that opportunity last spring when he failed to step up into the covid-19 pandemic arriving in our communities. Trump instead figured to divert blame from himself "in case" things went south, which his advisors were already telling him was happening... and so he set the states to competing with each other to see who could round up PPE for themselves, then had the feds seize some shipments and divert them to states that he Trump personally favored, thus getting future political support and as usual, a lot of media coverage (good bad or indifferent... the news is always fake to Trump until he announces to his supporters what is true).

So Trump's not really a dice roller in the ways that some more astute guys are when grabbing for that tinpot badge. He's just an impulsive blowhard when push comes to shove and often enough pretty much a coward. But he readily adopted two of his party's more steady intentions -- deregulation, tax cuts for the wealthy-- and those speak to the more time honored ways of would-be dictators trying to cement their favor with oligarchs.

He hasn't puzzled out yet how to swing the military to his side though in domestic affairs, even if he's made some well publicized efforts along that line. Thanks god for a long, long history of apolitical behavior of the US military. We shouldn't count on that alone to keep us from losing a grip on our democracy. Even now Trump angles for a chance to stir pots like those in Portland and Kenosha into moments when he could try for a declaration of martial law.

So no, he's not a Hitler. Sixty percent of the country still thinks he's a jackass. But he likes that Mein Kampf playbook, toys with pages of it by running stuff like "patriotic education of our youth" up his smartphone flagpole, and he has openly admired the playbooks of lesser dictators like the Philippines' Duterte, doubling down on his admiration when challenged.

The worst thing about Trump is simply that he will have become a precedent.
 

Scepticalscribe

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 12, 2020
587
868
Nobody is comparing body counts. We are talking about the psychology that is shared by these two figures and the people who follow them. We are talking about the destruction of democracy that occurs when despots of similar disposition are given the reins of power. We are talking about how a few well placed accomplices can so easily turn a functioning government into a criminal enterprise. And we are talking about a leader who will fan the flames of social division in order to further his goals.
Some very good points, and well argued.

Both of you guys make a point. The difference? The environment that enables and amplifies psychopathology into a genocide machine.
Again, a very good point, and a pertinent observation.

It's seed and soil. It always takes much more than a man.
I agree that the 40% approval is pretty good soil for a bad seed.
This reminds me, I wonder why we never compare Trump to Mussolini, the original fascist.
Excellent, and well said; to my mind, that is the more useful comparison to make.

There are plenty more to look at too. So far the absolute worst dictator in the modern history of the Americas has to have been Trujillo in the Dominican Republic. If that doesn't ring a bell for a lot of people, read up sometime on the 1937 Parsley massacre. That alone certainly explains why there's far more than "friendly rivalry" today lingering on the island of Hispaniola between Haitians and citizens of the DR, but it's not like Trujillo treated his own citizens with any respect for their humanity either.

I'm not suggesting Trump's a Trujillo. He plays at paving the way for one though: his fondness for EOs versus legislation, for appointing "acting deputies" instead of new agency chiefs the Senate would have to confirm, his weakening of our federal agencies by inserting former lobbyists as cabinet heads, end runs around the House appropriations, hijacking his own party into almost total sycophancy, disdain for and effort to discredit a free press, his endless public repetition of blatant lies... all those are an impressive start to what most eventual dictators (the ones who are actually elected) end up doing, which is effecting a sudden seizure of absolute power in a moment of national crisis.

As @yaxomaxy pointed out, Trump actually bollixed that opportunity last spring when he failed to step up into the covid-19 pandemic arriving in our communities. Trump instead figured to divert blame from himself "in case" things went south, which his advisors were already telling him was happening... and so he set the states to competing with each other to see who could round up PPE for themselves, then had the feds seize some shipments and divert them to states that he Trump personally favored, thus getting future political support and as usual, a lot of media coverage (good bad or indifferent... the news is always fake to Trump until he announces to his supporters what is true).

So Trump's not really a dice roller in the ways that some more astute guys are when grabbing for that tinpot badge. He's just an impulsive blowhard when push comes to shove and often enough pretty much a coward. But he readily adopted two of his party's more steady intentions -- deregulation, tax cuts for the wealthy-- and those speak to the more time honored ways of would-be dictators trying to cement their favor with oligarchs.

He hasn't puzzled out yet how to swing the military to his side though in domestic affairs, even if he's made some well publicized efforts along that line. Thanks god for a long, long history of apolitical behavior of the US military. We shouldn't count on that alone to keep us from losing a grip on our democracy. Even now Trump angles for a chance to stir pots like those in Portland and Kenosha into moments when he could try for a declaration of martial law.

So no, he's not a Hitler. Sixty percent of the country still thinks he's a jackass. But he likes that Mein Kampf playbook, toys with pages of it by running stuff like "patriotic education of our youth" up his smartphone flagpole, and he has openly admired the playbooks of lesser dictators like the Philippines' Duterte, doubling down on his admiration when challenged.

The worst thing about Trump is simply that he will have become a precedent.
As always, an absolute pleasure to read, instructive, thoughtful and though-provoking, and exceptionally well argued,
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Site Champ
Aug 15, 2020
403
643
The question is, did he leave the response primarily to the states because he respects the limits the Constitution puts on the federal government in such scenarios, or did he do so because he knew that if he involved the federal government more deeply in the attempts to contain the spread of the virus, the harder it'd be to deflect the blame if things go wrong?

Given his previous behavior, and his actions during the initial days of the outbreak, it's easier to assume the latter.
Another Hitler comparison. There's no evidence connecting Hitler to the holocaust, like a mob boss. He could have claimed ignorance. Trump was (is) avoiding taking responsibility for the covid-19 response so he can avoid any blame for things going sideways, both on sickness and death (couldn't care less) and the economy (cares about deeply).
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Site Champ
Aug 15, 2020
403
643
Pretty well versed; my birthday present for my twelfth birthday - which I had requested - was William L Shirer's book, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, the first book of many I have read on the subject.

Such similarities as do exist are both more subtle, and, because the US is a western democracy, more damning, than the obvious stuff, such as (irresponsible) rallies, designed to appeal to base & cruel instincts, inflame passions against An Other, and stoke up fears.

These include the gutting of state agencies, the emasculation and deliberate frustration of the branches of government charged with oversight, the abject surrender - the supine abdication of all moral and political responsibility - by "classical conservatives" (and that is one dismal and depressing similarity to Nazi Germany that I will willingly concede) as they ceded power to the coarse court of sycophants, toadies, zealots and corrupt cynics who surround Mr Trump.

And it has also included the replacement of formal systems and structures of governance by something resembling a dysfunctional medieval court - for Mr Trump's administration resembles nothing so much as a particularly chaotic medieval court, where one's power is measured in terms of access to a narcissistic monarch, an access granted at the price of stratospheric levels of sycophancy, and whatever incompetent and corrupt governance occurs, occurs parallel with incredibly vicious turf-wars upon which incredible energies are expended, as satellite courts (mini-me courts) try to carve out some space for themselves in such a toxic environment.

Even when he had vague associations with the Democrats, I don't doubt that Mr Trump had authoritarian tendencies, was a racist, a sexist, and a bully with an extraordinary capacity for cruelty, a man with an appetite for the vindictive humiliation of anyone who had had the misfortune to cross him.

Yet, all of that - and it is a surpassingly unpleasant (and thoroughly corrupt) that, - still doesn't make him Hitler.

However, there is one area where I will predict a similarity with the world of The Third Reich, especially in its dramatic final days, and that will be in the veritable plethora of books - invariably penned by insiders - that will flood the market after the departure - possibly inglorious - of Mr Trump from office.
Well written and informed, but I'm kind of surprised because my question was how is Trump unlike Hitler and your response is full of how he is.

Like has been said multiple times in this thread, "Hitler" and "Nazis" has been abused as a label for too many people and usually in the past when you asked them how with their early labeling the answer could easily be "I don't know. We'll figure it out later." and so now we think any comparison is just as ignorantly applied.

"Comforting" isn't the right word here, but I'm glad to see there is some discussion on here about the similarities that are beyond just reflexive or surface level.

Another comparison I would make is to do with the times and not Trump specifically. A good part of Hitler's rise to power was the people's complete distrust of the establishment government and an outsider siding with them on that distrust. Of course there's also the obvious similarity to suspicion of Jews/Muslims being outside forces that want to destroy our country.

This is all well beyond "[insert world dictator here] loved cats. So I guess everybody who loves cats is [insert world dictator here]. lol" nonsense.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Site Champ
Aug 15, 2020
403
643
I just read something interesting about this very subject, and the arguments made were quite apt.

In short, if you're really, truly desperate to compare to Trump to any other autocratic leader that's arose throughout history, it wouldn't be Hitler, wouldn't even be Mussolini. It'd be Saddam Hussein.
But also Saddam was an indirect student of Hitler, admirer if you will. In the world of dictators to Saddam Hitler was the OG.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Site Champ
Aug 15, 2020
403
643
Same way they all do. Increased regulations of some sort, imposing stuff like a national mandate on masks.
In the context of this thread, are you suggesting out of all of Trump's Hitler-esque behaviors that have been well covered here, that if he issued a national mask mandate that is when we would have to seriously worry about totalitarian rule?

I don't know if you are participating in this discussion so much as completely blowing it off but responding anyway.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Site Champ
Aug 15, 2020
403
643
No one is calling him Hitler, at best Hitler Light and it’s because the parallels are there and it has to do with his facist tendencies undermining, poisoning everything he touches for his personal benifit. If given enough support, I can easily imagining him morphing into his worst.

It also has a lot to do with the worst of his supporters that he seems to give a free pass to, and has been well supported by people who have worked with him from day one that he values blind loyalty above all else.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Huntn

Chew Toy McCoy

Site Champ
Aug 15, 2020
403
643
Both of you guys make a point. The difference? The environment that enables and amplifies psychopathology into a genocide machine.
But you've also made the point that some people think completely eliminates any comparisons. He hasn't committed a genocide, so full stop.

Some have already mentioned comparing Trump to Hilter on some levels is an insult to Hilter. Even Hitler realized he needed to dial back his anti-semitic rhetoric until he had complete control and then could dial it up and put something into action. Now I'm not suggesting or even thinking Trump would attempt some Muslim genocide, but I'm saying that isn't the only thing we should be worried about in comparison. Before it even got there in Germany there was a big campaign on nationalism, seeing outsiders as the total enemy (in our case include democrats), and complete loyalty to Hitler.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Site Champ
Aug 15, 2020
403
643
I thought he was more a follower of Stalin than Hitler.
I believe there were actually early direct connections between the Nazi Party and Iraq's Ba'ath Party. It seems at some point in history there were countries in Middle East who also had negative opinions of Jews. Hard to imagine now.
 

Thomas Veil

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 13, 2020
479
818
Sadly, I think the most likely result will be that either no charges will be brought...
You know, let me amend this. Trump is now suggesting that people vote twice. Barr, without any proof, is portraying mail-in voting as reckless and dangerous.

Between that and slowing the mail, they are interfering with the election to a degree I wouldn’t have thought possible, one which probably exceeds Putin’s fondest wet dream.

In his latest assault on the integrity of November's vote, Trump denigrated mail-in voting and in a staggering moment, appeared to suggest North Carolinians should try to vote twice -- a potential crime -- to test its security....
If the story of the 2016 election was a broad meddling operation by a foreign power to favor Trump, the emerging story of the 2020 election increasingly appears to be an attempt by the President to use executive power to swing the election his way. There has never been a modern American election in which a President has so publicly and unashamedly tried to portray the sacred quadrennial exercise in democracy as corrupt.
Trump's attempt to discredit mail-in voting got a strong assist from Attorney General William Barr, who declared that changing to such a system would be "reckless and dangerous," in an interview with CNN on Wednesday.
After all this, I don’t see how you don’t charge both Trump and Barr with attempted election fraud. 😡 They need to go to jail or our justice system is a hollow mockery.